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Calvinism, charismatic, Life, Mark Driscoll, new, new calvinism, reformed, Theology, twitter, warlock
Pastor Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill apparently has decided to explain his tweet about the converted warlock. In said explanation he tells us:
I told him that it seemed to me that Jesus saved his life and his soul, and that Jesus spoke to him personally. Simply, I was blown away at the evidence of God’s grace in his life. That God would reach down, speak to a man, and love him from death to life, both physically and spiritually, was incredibly encouraging….
So, I posted a short summary on Twitter and Facebook that simply said, “Met a former warlock today who was near death on a drug OD & heard God say, ‘This one is mine & I love him.’ Yup. He’s elect.” I thought fellow Christians would be encouraged and maybe give a fist pump while shouting, “Yay, Jesus!”
Instead, there was sadly a minor round of hose-meets-bees-nest drama. I thought I’d take this opportunity to clarify a few things.
One, God did not speak to me about this man. Rather, God apparently spoke to this man.
Two…
Wait, wait, wait. Stop right there. There’s the problem, right there in number one. That dog won’t hunt at all. Jesus did not speak to this man. God does not speak to people – not to warlocks, not to Christians and not even to pastors – apart from the written Word of God.
Mark, and beloved reader, if God said something, it was written down in a closed cannon, the Bible, not whispered in your ear. God’s will for you is your sanctification, your conformity to Christ. Do you know how I know that? Because it’s written in the Bible.
This continued push to accept charismatic nonsense in the Church is a great error, and not something to be fluffed off as a ‘secondary matter.’ This entire ‘new Calvinism’ movement is absolutely fraught with danger.
This kind of talk from anyone is nothing short of fruity, whacked, out-there. It is unbiblical and dangerous. I cringe when I think of how many are being mislead by this man, I truly do; but I cringe more at the deafening sound of silence from influential voices of reason.
If you must, you can read Mark’s explanation here.
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Amen Joel. Very well said.
Let’s see so I know I said that God spoke to me but I really meant that God did not speak to me!?
what? I am confused. so I can say whatever I want and then later say it meant…. well whatever I want. Hmmmm…… ya that a good argument. here is yet another reason to only twitter things like – this has been a good day. or I am mowing the grass. and not things like the angel of Finance visited me. Oh wait that was Todd Bentley but it is getting harder to tell them apart.
I have virtually zero influence, but I do hope I have a voice of reason, and from my point of view, (one I’ve held since the early 70′s ) all these subjective “God told me” folks are not to be trusted. I wonder about these fellows…is it that they think Scripture is insufficient, or is it they think God is so enarmored with them that he’s held back crucial portions of His counsel until seizing the opportunity to speak into their super-spiritual minds and thru their sweet lips.
Thank you for posting this Joel. The tweet made no sense and the follow-up answer, from a Biblical stand point, was not encouraging but rather confusing. On another note…is it just me or does Driscoll seem to always have such graphic tales to tell? I always feel like I need to have a “bleep” button handy.
Great point you make D.R. Leach.
heres my 2 cents. i am involved in the hardwood floor industry. 18 yrs or so ago i went to sand a small entryway in a new house. pouring down rain a , no driveway, and they were bulldozing the yard. i brought in an edger( small sander 30lbs) . it did not work so i had to bring in a sander that weighs 225 lbs( in 2 pieces). when sanding floors to stain you can not get it wet at all, and it was a dark stain that takes extra effort ot make it look right.i sat on a fireplace hearth and was ticked off and complaining.
I heard a voice that said ” I carried MY cross after being nearly beaten to death”.
that was all i heard. I got my act together and did one of the best job i ever did, i was humbled
was it JESUS? i believe it was.
later i was praying on my way home, that i could be like the apostle paul. within 1/2 hour i ran over something and got 2 flat tires on the passenger side. when i pulled over and found out it was 2 tires flat i wondered what i would do. the mini van i just purchased had 2 spares 1 on the back door and another under the back frame. i felt ( but not hearing a voice) GOD quoting “my grace is sufficenct for you when you are weak I am strong.”
i am not a charismatic. been worshipping at a nazarene church for the last 25 years, being “surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses” GOD has allowed me to be a man of HIS word.at the time i was heavily doing word studies, writting down verses which the words were in,involved in single parents ministry, and for the last 7 years elementry children work. i still do word studies with the children every week, encourging them to write them down.
I think you guys need to hear all sides of the story, not just what you read on THIS PARTICULAR blog. Sounds legit to me.
Pastor Joel,
Let me just say, while I’d classify myself as Reformed, I’ve attended a charismatic church for many years. Though I’ve heard and seen some ungodly weirdness(particularly during the ‘Brownsville revival era’), I’ve also seen some evidences of God working in a manner reminiscent of 1 Corinthians 12. I believe that the gifts mentioned in 1 Cor 12: 7-9 is speaking of an ability where God gives a person supernatural, revelatory information they’d never receive any other way, for the purpose of serving God and edifying one another as believers. of course, the litmus test is: does it line up with or contradict Scripture?
The one thing you seem to gloss over, Pastor Joel, is the fact that evidently, this ex-warlock guy has come to Christ. That is the main thing here. And I am sure that somewhere along the line, this guy must have heard the gospel, otherwise he’d never have prayed to Jesus as he was going through the violent episode he described in the article. What I am saying is, yes God is speaking primarily in his word today; Hebrews 1 makes that clear. However, God can and does, I believe, speak in ways other than his written revealed word(heck, he speaks through nature everyday!). And I believe 1 Cor 12:7-9 makes the case for that.
A few years ago, a woman whom I’d never met before in my life, approached me and gently rebuked me for a sin I was engaged in. Now, let me ask YOU, Pastor Joel, how did she know I was committing a specific sin? Did Satan give her this knowledge? Or God? You tell me…
First, we don’t know the ‘warlock’ was saved after all, and second, I don’t think anyone gave that woman knowledge, unless she saw you commit said sin. The important thing is that you repented of it and moved on.
Well, that is a very interesting answer. I thought you’d at least rule out Satan altogether, since we know the devil never suggests repentance. And for you to suggest she must’ve ‘saw me commit said sin’ …well, that’s a negative, my friend. We’d never met before as I fore-stated. So that leaves two other options: either she is “semi-omniscient” or God revealed that to her, which would be, I believe, in line with 1 Cor 12: 7-9.
Regarding the warlock, I’ll give you that only the Lord knows if he’s truly converted, but we shall know for sure down the road if he continues in the faith.
God bless.
2PC – I wonder if you are missing the broader picture, given the weight you seem to give your own anecdotal evidence.
It seems to me there are all sorts of possiblities how this woman could have been aware of your sin, however, since we do not truly know the details of this story (nor may you, for that matter) is is hard to know. It seems to me if our sin is “private” God can convict us in any number of ways without giving a third party “special knowledge.” Perhaps via a sound sermon, a godly book, or the Word of God itself. I see little evidence in our time that God sends a Nathan to a David with a “thou art the man” rebuke. You see, God did indeed SEND Nathan (llSam 12:1a “And the Lord sent Nathan unto David.”) Nathan did not see what David did, Nathan was not told by another man what David did – the Lord spoke to Nathan Himself concerning David. I think many of these “prophets” who “know” the sins of others and kindred secret things do not receive this awarenes from God as Nathan did. If such prophets do exist today, I for one want to know, and go camp out near them, and wait for extra-biblical pronouncements.
As to the appeal to I Cor 12: 7-9, I can say nothing for certain, except that the tongues part of the following verse, verse 10 seems to me no longer in operation, all the modern fakes notwithstanding. If that is the case, I wonder about the healing, miracles, prophecy and special word of knowledge, etc.
I for one have a hard enough time being faithful to what I find in the Word of God, I am not sure I need, or would much profit from dubious busy-bodies posing as prophets.
My question is this.
What will you do when God speaks to you?
Either you are insane and hearing voices, in which case you have some real issues to contend with. Or, have I suddenly become deaf, suggesting the God of the bible who did speak to people, must have lost his voice once the “cannon of scripture” was completed.
Or a third option is to alter our theology to frame my lack of experience to explain why the very things we teach from the word, ceased 2000 years ago.
Oh, and then there is this one.
Are you God, or is he?
I am constantly amazed at the shear arrogance the church adopts in thinking we can explain the actions and intent of the creator of the universe. And furthermore, when those actions do not line up to our belief system, we suggest or worse yet teach that God must have got it wrong, because “after all I am a student of the Bible, and I know how God works in all his glory and fullness…”
God does not speak to mankind today. If this is true what sort of God do you serve? He sounds pretty weak to me. No wonder your churches are doing a pitiful job of affecting the corrupt world seeking answers.
Many blessings as we pursue him, in truth, but without prejudice.
Before I make an opinion – or rather, before I confirm my opinions – I have a question about the terminology used. What EXACTLY do we mean when we use the phrase, “God told me ..”?
I have heard many people use the phrase “God put it on my heart” and get attacked for declaring that they were receiving extra-biblical revelation and claiming to hear the voice of God. I’m sure that while some are indeed making that claim, more people mean that to say they had a compulsion, or even a thought that seemed “out of place,” that they felt strongly came from the influence of the Holy Spirit. Now, mind you, you need to check these things out Scripturally (no, God does not want you to rob the bank and donate the money to the poor!).
So the first question I ask when I hear someone say this is, “How did He tell you?” The second question is, “Did you verify through Scripture?”
This kind of thing does indeed happen unless even we say that great Charles Spurgeon planted a man in his congregation to hype things or perhaps it was the devil who revealed something to Spurgeon. I’m inclinded to believe Spurgeon was not lying and that it wasn’t the devil, but rather it was the Spirit of God who revealed to Spurgeon that a man in his audience had stolen some gloves. http://www.spurgeon.org/misc/bio13.htm
The Spirit blows as He as He wills. We do well not to try to put him in boxes of our own creation.