Dear Mark,
I’m going to make this short for a variety of reasons, none of which are important enough to list for others to read.
I wanted to write this not only to express my concerns for your spiritual well-being, but also to thank you. Yes, I am grateful for your ministry, but not perhaps, for reasons you might presume.
I am not impressed with your notoriety. But I am concerned.
I’m concerned that you have recently claimed to be able to ‘see things’, pornographic things, about other people you don’t even know, which, quite frankly, is a claim to powers no one on earth has. Why do you claim such? Doesn’t that make you uncomfortable, knowing that no one else on earth has such powers, and yet, you, for all practical purposes, claim you do? Or, has fame gone to your head to the extent that you have actually believed the press Acts 29 and the Gospel Coalition has promoted about you?
Mark, can you tell the Church where in Scripture that this is a gift from God? It’s an important question, because if you insist you have this gift, and it is not from God, well, you know the rest.
No, if you will be honest, you can’t my friend. Because it isn’t. You have no such powers or abilities, none whatsoever. It makes you look silly when you claim such things, and, I dare say, stupid. Yeah. Stupid, arrogant, self-centered and self-exalting. It’s sad. Sad because it’s everything Christianity isn’t, and yet, you continue to draw followers. I’m not sure what kind of followers – worldy, unregenerate perhaps, but nonetheless, you are drawing followers.
But I love you, man. I think. I’m not sure. I’m not sure because I don’t know if you are a brother in Christ or the enemy who crept in silently, unnoticed and then promoted and mentored by John Piper. I just don’t know. Jury hasn’t read the verdict….but they’re walking into the courtroom to have a seat.
I’m also concerned about this latest tweet of yours:
Met a former warlock today who was near death on a drug OD & heard God say, "This one is mine & I love him". Yup. He's elect.—
Mark Driscoll (@PastorMark) September 12, 2011
Now Mark, I don’t care who heard what, whether it was you or the alleged ‘warlock’ who heard God, but when you imply you can determine who is an elect of God…that’s too far man. You’ve lost it. You claim to be God when you have that ability.
Guess what? You’re not God. I wouldn’t let you mow my lawn. You don’t have that ability, you never did and you never will, ever. You’re nada. In fact, you’re less than nada when it comes to those attributes. Charles Spurgeon suggested chalk on the coat tails for those of you who think you have such abilities, but even Spurgeon didn’t have that one.
Mark, If you hear voices, it’s not God. If you see things. Not from God. If you elect people to salvation, you are not God. Not your department hotshot.
You are a Seattle-based, YRR, religious person. I’ll try real hard to not go further with the adjectives….[delete, delete, delete].
Mark, I am glad, in fact, very thankful, for your ministry. Listen, no one enjoys negative criticism. But honestly, listening to your fantasies is like watching Lethal Weapon 4 in order to establish guidelines for family television use.
I’m thankful for your ministry for one reason, and that only:
Christians need to understand error. You give us error. That error and the struggle that goes with it (we win btw) gives us a clearer grasp of Truth from God. When more believers recognize that, and gain experience standing against mystic knuckleheads (bless your heart) like yourself, the Church grows stronger in its faithfulness to the Lord, a renewed love and devotion for Christ.
And for that, I thank you Mark, I truly do.
In His service,
J.T.
Related articles
- Mark Driscoll Explains the Warlock Thing (5ptsalt.com)
- Mark Driscoll Claims Extra-Biblical Revelation from Jesus (5ptsalt.com)
- Q&A: Seeking the Power (5ptsalt.com)
- Mark Driscoll Has Gone off the Rails, and Off His Rocker (zwingliusredivivus.wordpress.com)
if you have ought with your brother go to him
Jjowen220@comcast.net
Did you just KJV me?
Oh the dreaded combox KJVing! is this what it has come too?
Did you just misuse Matt 18 (KJV) on Joel? For shame!
I am not surprised at all. I cannot say that I ever had any confidence in him from the first I heard of him. But I agree that he is now outside of any orthodoxy now, as are more than a handful in the Gospel Coalition. The theological differences between those in the GC are I believe much wider than those Spurgeon left the Baptist Union over.
The ESV works just as well.
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained a brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church.”
I’m concerned as well, but not enough to accuse him of thinking he is God. I’m not ready to delete, delete, delete, but to keep working at grace, grace, grace.
Katie, do you truly expect me to fly to Seattle? When this man is a public figure making public statements?? Seriously? I don’t think so.
Did you at least send him your ‘open letter’, or the blog link? That would be the least of things you could do. I personally am sick of Christians attacking Christians without first talking to each other about their doctrinal differing beliefs.
Katie,
Clearly this is not in the context of Matt 18:15. As JT was not wronged directly by Driscoll. This is a matter of Driscoll clearly making statements that are demonstrably not is accord with NT teaching. Furthermore Driscoll is asserting these lies from the pulpit. This is a matter of rebuking false non biblical teaching plain and simple. But as Matthew Henry once said “we have a number of good and affectionate but weak hearers they are always afraid that we shall offend other hearers. Hence, if the Truth be spoken in a plain and pointed manner and seems to come close to home to the conscience they think that surely it ought not to have been spoken—because So-and-So and So-and-So and So-and-So took offense at it. Truly, my Brethren, we are not all slow to answer in this matter .”
TY, that is a brilliant quote from Matthew Henry. Can you give us all the source? I tried to google it but the only thing that came up is your comment right here.
oh never mind I did locate it in Spurgeon’s sermon “The Weeding of the Garden”
Nope, Joel, I don’t. But I would like to think that a man who truly loves the Lord, as you so evidently do, could pick up a telephone, or perhaps e-mail him. I’m simply asking you to show him some grace. If you conclude after talking with him, the same things you have put forth here, then I think that honestly, you did all you could.
Once you say these things Joel, you cannot effectively take them back, which I suspect Mark is also figuring out.
I’m not going to post my other concerns here in an open forum, but if you would like to discuss it you can e-mail me privately. I believe that is the scriptural way to go about these things.
Katie, what I have done is scriptural. Have a blessed day.
So because Mark Driscoll calls someone “elect,” it means that he has special power to do so? Or does it mean that he was simply making an observation about the former warlock’s eternal status? And why is it that God can’t or doesn’t or won’t audibly talk to people anymore?
God does speak audibly. He saith that Driscoll isn’t elect, and neither are you.
Sorry.
If you have aught with your brother you are to go to them in private. If that doesn’t work then you are to take witnesses with you & then if that doesn’t work to bring them before the church.
Even though he needed to be corrected about his error, this was not done in love-assumed by the name calling & insinuations-and does not restore such a one in love.
Public error gets confronted in public, as in Galatians 2:11. Going privately to your brother, as pointed out above, is in the context of having been offended or giving offense to a brother personally – not making public pronouncements. Public pronouncements invite and demand public reproofs – in addition to whatever private reproof one wants to provide.
Driscoll has gone beyond being a man with some issues. He is now a heretic; proved by his own tweet.
I am not reformed, but this rings true me (because I guess I really do have superpowers!) There is an arrogance Driscoll gives off that I have never liked.
>>Christians need to understand error. You give us error.<<
He also gives us shiny shirts, gay haircuts and middle-aged metrosexual hubris. Only a matter of time till Driscoll, Piper and Warren join forces to start up a new megachurch "plant." It'll put its forbears to shame. Hide n' watch.
From what I have read, John MacArthur and Phil Johnson have contacted Driscoll in the past. It didn’t help.
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Ingrid Schlueter did warn us about him. Just saying. Very good post. Thanks.
Paul confronted Peter and told everyone about it. Why? Because Peter’s open hypocrisy needed to be corrected publicly. The open letter has good biblical warrant.
(This is a copy of a comment I made over at “In the Hedge w/ David J”)
Mark Driscoll is not the first person to express this ability. And he does need to be careful about what ‘voices’ he listens to since Satan can “appear(or speak) as an angel of light’.
But this kind of thing does happened. I was once had a woman I’d never met before in my life walk up to me and gently rebuke me over the sin I had in my life and, yes, I believe she got it from God. There’s no way she’d have that type of information otherwise.
And over the years, I have seen folks in the church TRY TO ACT as if they had a “Word of Knowledge” but were in fact, phonies. However, there were saints, usually the fatherly and motherly figures, who could walk up to a young person and in a manner reminiscent of the OT prophets say to them, “you were out at the club last night” or “you need to repent because you’ve been fornicating”. I’ve seen it happen myself.
Now the only way we will know for sure this is error is if down the line, this ‘warlock’ doesn’t get saved. Then we will look at it and say Driscoll was in error. That said, I like Driscoll and have personally benefited from his online resources and materials for the last 3 years. I believe he truly loves Jesus and adores Scripture, but I hope he starts consulting the Lord with these things because they can be of God or the devil.
God’s grace.
The letter might have good biblical warrant, but if you really love – or think you love – Mr. Driscoll and are really doing things in His service I am not sure what the need for resorting to personal jibes in the letter and implicit insulting has to do with anything.
I think Creflo Dollar (for example) preaches foolishness and I may just write an open letter, but can it not just be by presenting scripture with his claims and leave at that? Sigh.
There is also plenty of scriptural precedent for mocking foolishness and false teaching/teachers. Just sayin’
Amos 4:1, for example…
Ezekiel on Mount Carmel, Jeremiah calling Israel a donkey in heat, Jesus calling Peter Satan, mocking the scribes and pharisees and calling them names…his gentle embarrasment of Nicodemus “what? you’re the teacher of Israel and you don’t understand these things?”
I mean, if Jesus wasn’t provocative, why’d they get so angry, even at his first public appearance where he deliberately provoked them? He got them so angry they tried to throw him off the cliff right away. He seemed to deliberately make a spectacle out of those in error, as did the prophets before him.
Mark Driscoll has a huge influence on any one that listens to him, or attends his church. Very dangerous!
I listened to his whole sermon, regarding his abilities to read peoples minds, and have visions about their sexual & violent behaviors.(I could barely believe what I was hearing.) Right away I could see his pride.
I guess he lost the teaching, sin is sin. Its unseemly, that he called people out on their sexual sin. He is playing with fire delving into that arena. A huge disservice was done all round. Many sat in the congregation that day… and said to themselves…’well, at least I dont have that sin– whew! I guess I’m not bad off afterall…” In addition, I believe that he is voyeuristic and obtains a thrill, & is using his church’s pulpit, to gratify his own unwholesome desires.
But I’d like to correct you a little bit pastor Joel…. you say that ‘no one on earth has those powers, or abilities’.
We know from the bible, there are dark powers and ungodly abilities, supernatural powers, ESP, clairvoyance, esp, fortune telling, psychic abilities, demon possession & evil occult practices.
I’m born again Christian, 55, but I spent over 20 years in new age/hindu/yoga/dark arts, and can tell you, that YES, people do have those powers.
It’s my educated opinion, that those powers are increasing greatly in our culture, (now in evangelical church) and in our communities all across the US. (due to overwhelming promotion & acceptance of occultic religions, hindu yoga, Buddhism, witchcraft, and also Islam on the rise.)
Its my opinion that Driscoll is experiencing kundalini serpent powers, which are brought upon by calling on demon spirits which have control in the realm of depraved human sexuality. He may be doing this unwittingly, but once you indulge yourself in that area, the enemy delights, and turns on the charm that seduces.
In prayer for M.Driscoll, and all Christian Leaders that are giving up Truth for the Lie.
.’ And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.7 “You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
8 ‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far away from Me. 9 ‘But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’ ” 10 After Jesus called the crowd to Him, He said to them, “Hear and understand.11 “It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.” 12 Then the disciples came* and said* to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?”13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted.14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.” Matt 15:6-14 (NASB)
First, let me say thank you for allowing this to be posted…if it does (I have a block on my blog until it is approved). I want to thank you brother Joel for being faithful. You have addressed an issue, you felt necessary to do (I pray this was done after prayer and/or fasting) acording to the Word of GOD. Amen.
I post the above Scripture, in context, to show and hope demonstrait a point. One that I think we/I need to pay closer attention to. I also hope you would allow me to make one observation, regarding your post.
Verse 13 and 14 give clear indication JESUS, our SOVEREIGN LORD knows who these teachers are and who follow them. JESUS has been accused of not following the law. JESUS the goes directly to the heart of the issue. What does HE do but use Scripture and demonstraits how they invaildated the word of GOD. JESUS then teaches the crowd the correctly.
What I am getting at is where is the Scripture and the invaidating of the Scripture by Mr. Driscoll. (Yes, I saw allusions….). Hebrews 4:11-13, I believe give evidence to this.
11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
Heb 4:11-13 (NASB)
I say simply, show him his error, demonstrate what is correct, and call him to repentance. Last I make mention of some of your references to him personally (Knucklehead). Please see the following.
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
2 Tim 3:16-17 (NASB)
.24 The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
2 Tim 2:23-26 (NASB)
I realize this has taken a bit of space….forgive me. I am in support of you and this open letter. I am encouraged and thank GOD for HIS guiding you to write it. I, however, have seen many of these before. At some point you just have to leave it alone. I know Joel you are aware of others who (I should say believe you are aware) of others who have tried to communicate to Mr. Driscoll.
I close with this lession I heard about, but its application is so fundamental. How do Treasury Agents learn to spot fake money? They only, intimately study the real thing. That way when they see something fake, it is spotted, and can be pointed to directly. May we be the same with the word of GOD and our walk with the LORD. My prayer is we all have the same heart as Ezra 7:10.
Thank you again.
No, Treasury Agents spot phony money by laying the real deal side by side with suspect bills. As for your inference that Jesus said to just set the Pharisees aside, he didn’t. The passage instructs not to follow blind guides. And Jesus makes their teaching an example of what not to follow which cannot be done if it is just to be ignored. In short Jesus is not saying drop the subject, but don’t pay attention to the teaching simply based upon the authority of the speaker, but rather the authority of the teaching itself. Jesus himself, as the teacher doesn’t drop the subject as is evident by further confrontations with them, he in fact goes to the extreme of cleansing the temple, pursuing them, as it were, in their error. Which we need to recognize as the kindness that Paul instructs Timothy to exhibit which isn’t a mealy mouthed felt-handed gentleness, necessarily. Paul uses several words translated kindness of which some simply mean nice, but others mean appropriate action. Each situation is to be handled with the wisdom appropriate to it. Why? Because that is what the Teacher did. And, we should also understand his use of language like when he called his own disciples idiots and fools. The right word, the right time, the right attitude, all come into play. Jesus was a friendly man, he was also exacting in his actions and speech. In his kindness he made a whip. With his mouth he wielded a sword, and also a balm to heal. Jesus didn’t hide behind a phony mask of feminine softness, when he needed to explode he did so. When he needed to rebuke, he did so. When he needed to label, he did so. When he needed to speak words of healing and comfort, he did that too. And all with the appropriate kindness of a real person.
Dear Brother,
You have said what I have wanted to scream for the past 2 years! I am a sister who attended Mark Driscoll’s church for 5 years. Started having doubts probably the first day I set foot in the place(what kind of church has security guards flanking the entire stage AND 2 Seattle police officers in uniform??? (For any Driscollite who dares say that is not so you are calling me a liar). That being said, the serious concerns began to arise when I read 2 of his books -Confessions of a Reformission Rev. and Vintage Jesus. The blasphemy! The gall! How dare he speak about my Lord in that fashion! He has no fear and no shame. The icing on the cake was his infamous SOS sermon series the Peasant Princess. The things he said in the name pragmatic coolness should never, ever be uttered in a public worship setting. His attempt at sophomoric humor fell flat…. Oh not in his worshipers and fanboys minds, I am sure. He butchered the beautiful poetry behind the book. Not to mention the blasphemous homosexual references he made in regards to Jesus (aimed supposedly at those who believe that SOS is allegory referring to Christ and his Bride).
I am sure this is a beaten dead horse. He is beginning to lift his mask and it is a wolf’s face behind it. I am not someone that lives in a far off state that only hears snippets of his sermons and reads he said/ he said blogs. I was there in person! I can attest that this man is vile. Please pray for my sister and her children who still are members of Mars Hill. I have attempted to point out to her his blasphemies and cult leader persona on numerous occasions. She is blind. She literally hangs on to every word the man say. If he endorses it it is from God himself! Please, please pray that God will open her eyes as he did mine. I truly fear for his congregation . For brevities sake I did not even mention his connection and endorsement of dubious characters such as Robert Schuller and Rick Warren…….
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Pommommy,
May I ask a question?
Driscoll said that he was once physically threatened so perhaps that’s the reason for bodyguards/cops? A couple years ago, a pastor in Illinois was gunned down in the pulpit, so hey, if you provide security, so it.
Now I’ve yet to read the books you referenced, but heard the SOS series on podcast. I think he was speaking to a group in a way they’d understand. Hey, if you’re preaching to a generation of young folks raised on MTV, BET, hip hop, grunge, and “Will & Grace”, you can’t use queen’s English, you meet them right where they are. That’s what the best communicators do.
You say he’s “vile”. In what ways? Because I am from the Midwest and I would like to know what he has done to you personally. Seriously, I’d like to know.
And as for the Warren/Schuller connection: Hey, look at it this way: those folks in Schuller’s church have not heard the gospel for years, you’d think we’d all rejoice when one goes to a place like that to preach Christ.
I know about Mark Driscoll only because the Christian blogosphere labeled him as “the cussing pastor”. After listening for myself, I have no idea why he earned that label. I have never, ever seen a guy who preaches the gospel of the person and work of Jesus Christ vilified like this.
I mean, Zachary Tims, a Prosperity pastor who admitted to adultery, was found dead a month ago under shady circumstances, and I’ve read more kind words spoken of him than for Driscoll.
People, when Driscoll starts preaching false doctrine, abandons the Truth of the Gospel, teaches things other than Christ and him crucified, then–then–I personally will be alarmed. I think some of us need to go learn the definition of a wolf-in-sheep’s-clothing, because they don’t preach Jesus.
God’s grace.
(btw–I read an article last week filled w/ comments from angry Seattleans. These folks HATE Driscoll, but that’s understandable coming from non-believers.)
“Driscoll said that he was once physically threatened so perhaps that’s the reason for bodyguards/cops?”
Perhaps. But I don’t remember Paul or anyone in Scripture having guards to protect him, except when he was under arrest himself. I’ve gotten to the point where if a pastor has bodyguards, there is something wrong. Why not trust the Lord to protect us and allow our ministry to prosper the way he wants it to? Perhaps we are meant to be martyrs for the cause of Christ? Why should we be any different than those who went before us?
And yes, I realize Dr Macarthur has them too. I simply do not get it. That’s the problem with megachurches and megapastors. We start to protect our ‘stuff’ whether it is our lives or property.
I don’t know the answer, I can’t say I wouldn’t do the same, but it troubles me. It feels more like a rock star mentality than a pastor/shepherd mentality.
terriergal,
I once looked down on preachers with bodyguards, too, but being a pastor can be a dangerous position. Here in the state of Illinois, a pastor was gunned down…while in the pulpit! And that wasn’t an isolated incident. Now, I remember listening to a Driscoll podcast where he mentioned some angry guy wanted to take a shot or a swing at him(some people get violent when you tell them about their sin), so when that happens, any church board worth its salt should get a pastor some security if need be.
If you have ‘aught’ (KJV) with thy brother, etc.
But we ought not to Matthew 18 tweets, blogs, videos, FB posts, or sermonic material, as these are public arenas. Matt 18 for private sins, with expanding circle as recalcitrance is apparent. 1 Timothy 5:19f applies if there be public sin.
The jury is out, but Driscoll does appear to be spiraling.
See not only Pyromaniacs reports, but also the God’s Hammer blog, “Charismatic Visions,” Pts 1 & 2.
Driscoll teaches with MacDonald, Piper, Warren, Wilson, TGC, and runs the Acts29 training program, influencing 100s if not 1000s of pastor/ elders. He will have much to answer for if he doesn’t move back toward truth, fast.
Like the fatally tragic P-51 crash in Reno yesterday (9/16/11), M.D. appears to be having trouble controlling his aircraft, and is diving toward the grandstands.
Hugh, can you imagine what John Robbins might have to say about all the madness that has taken root in the few years since his passing? Regarding Piper’s downgrade (meltdown?), he’d likely start with, “Told ya so.”
It’s time for the Church to take a stand against this “twilight zone” theology. Most prominent Pastors and Bible teachers won’t speak out against these loons because there are so many in their congregations who have bought into this foolishness that has filled our living rooms via TBN for the last 30 years and if they tell the truth they’ll lose many in their congregations. In other words they are menpleasers instead of Godpleasers. Thank you Joel for telling the truth.
Butch Grogan,
I totally agree with you that there needs to be a stand against “twilight zone” theology (I like to refer to it as “Comic-book Christianity”).
But myself, a person who came to embrace Reform theology over the last 12-13 years(because I discovered I was a Calvinist in thought without realizing it), I have, nevertheless, seen and experienced this type of thing where people have received a “word of knowledge” and things like that. I once had a lady I’d never met before in my life gently rebuke me over a sin in my life and I know that only the Lord could’ve revealed that knowledge to her, so it does happen.
I attend a Charismatic church yet I’m trying to extend a Reformed presence and influence but I do believe God can speak in this manner…BUT, its the exception, not the norm. When, and if it does happen, though, it’s gotta line up with Scripture.