The audio below is an excerpt from a talk Mark Driscoll gave on the four distinctives of what he calls the "New Reformed" movement, i.e. new calvinism, which basically is an attempt to combine reformed theology and charismatic theology.
Now, we have an old saying where I come from and it’s this: That dog won’t hunt. In other words, won’t work. It can’t because it’s truth + error, and we all know what that is….heresy.
This 16+ minutes demonstrates Driscoll’s approach to the question of continualism vs. cessationism. The original video of the talk can be found here.
Driscoll argues that, if you are a cessationist, you may not only be a deist, but worldly.
I have quite a few problems with the whole new calvinism ‘movement’, but I’d like to hear your comments about this. Give it a listen, let me know what you think.
For a great resource on cessationism, go here.
Well where to start? first he presents a false dichotomy between David Hume and C.S. Lewis as if we have to be in one camp or the other, I would say a true reformed perspective would be in neither. I am not sure which one has more problems. Second as Sam Waldron has said we are all cessationist to some degree is we say that the office of apostle is no longer in operation. There is plenty of evidence to disprove the claims of the continueists I would first start with an in depth lexical study of the semantic domain and uses of the words tongues and prophet. But it appears as though Marks argument is not for the Biblical proof of the gifts here but an appeal to the actions of many in history to demonize those who reject the gifts. The result is he cites Hume and Jefferson etc. who are; well to be very charitable less than orthodox (very charitable) I would consider neither a regenerate. The problem I see is that prior the modern Pentecostal movement all of the reformers he speaks of Luther, Calvin etc. would not agree with him at all especially Edwards who would be I am sure happy to debate Hume and yet is very logical, intellectual and as deeply theological as any and more than most. Basically he is just slandering and poisoning the well here there is no real case here he is arguing the action of those who may or may not even adhere to a position not the merits of that position. One more thing I completely object to equating a cessationist to non Christians who reject all of the recorded miracles of Jesus! Seriously which of the puritans or reformers held that position? Absurd.
let’s get to the laymen terms of the situation here. How does one explain the experiences that people have, citing that they have been used to heal the sick, or have been given a word of knowledge that they affirm they had no prior knowledge of but when spoken to an individual they hit the nail on the head which causes that individual to turn and look to Christ?!?
I just can understand how the position can be so easily quantified by people who understand that life and all existence itself is far more spiritual than it is physical – hence the scripture stays:
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places…” – Eph 6:12
Though this scripture alone cannot fully support an argument pro continualism, it is but one of many that remind me that even the tools given to understand spiritual things will not be as simply summed up in becoming book smart with scripture. For the most part I’ve seen the continualism mentality too far liberalized just the same as I find cessationism too far conservative.
Anyhow, if you could please help me understand my question within my first paragraph. Maybe I’m looking at it wrong and missing the point being discussed altogether, I’m not sure…
Grace and Peace
I think he has many good points that are Biblical and that he is heading in the right direction. Whether he has “arrived” at the destination yet is open to interpretation. I do know that those that are cessationistic in their theology do not have a good grasp of Biblical teaching in regards to spiritual gifts but neither do the crazy charasmatic extremists who open the door wide to demonic manifestations. Spiritual gifts are just that…gifts from the Holy Spirit to help build the ‘body of Christ’ till we all come to the unity of the faith…unto a mature man. To be honest I do not see the unity and maturity we, as believers, should have and I feel that that can be attributed partially to the rejection of the Holy Spirit’s ministry in regards to giftings.
Rev. Jo,
I would disagreeStrongly that he is heading in the right direction, I would say this is more like a train wreck. This is a perfect example of why we must be very careful when preaching topically it is very easy to digress into babbling. I catch myself doing it also. Mark only makes one reference in passing to 1 Cor. 12-13 but there is no reading of the texts dealing directly with the gifts of the Spirit nor any exegesis of them in the original language and in the context of the author just straw man argumentation. It is amazing how someone can talk for 16 minutes and you could spend several hours correcting it with actual exegesis. This is yet another reason to reject Mark Driscoll and many of those connected with the “new Calvinism”.
Reformed Charismatic is an oxymoron and 1Cor. 8-13 is a reference to the close of the canon, not an endorsement of charismatic delusions.
Ty,
Here, here. I could not agree more. That topical stuff will lead everyone into the ditch… and keep them there.
The Bible is a unified book with one Author. Pulling out a verse or two and then launching on a personal meandor through wishful thinking is beyond irresponsible.
Warn people everywhere to avoid the so-called new Calvinism or new reformed. It ain’t new, it ain’t true to the Bible…
Tru
As a former card-carrying Pentecostal preacher’s son, groomed for the “prophetic ministry” who simply did the minimum of homework on this issue, may I be the first to tell Mark Driscoll (in love) to sit down and do the homework himself.
This message is full of the typical bravado, smug self-assurance and downright annoying demeanour I have come to find in those who claim that these gifts are still in operation – even though to sustain their claim, they must radically redefine their terms (i.e.Grudem’s murder of the term “prophecy”) away from the Biblical standard and cannot sustain a strong exegetical argument in the process.
I am not a New Calvinist – especially when the argumentation is so poor…
Wow, that was a lot of explaining and philosophical nonsense for what is essentially a strawman argument. Ceassationism is pejorative, “ceassationists” do not believe that the Holy Spirit no longer works miraculously, we do believe however that charismatics are mistaken on the nature, purpose and use of the gifts of the Spirit. We believe all the gifts of the Spirit are supernatural in nature and none of them are mere talents or natural abilities. The nature, purpose and use of these gifts, however, must be defined by Scripture and not charismatic gnostic spiritualism.
Sounds to me like Driscoll is taking a backhanded shot at John MacAurther. Again.
Wow. Tremendously frustrating to listen to. I’m almost stunned at how poorly this was handled.
For heaven’s sake! It’s as if he just spat on the grave of the vast majority of protestant evangelicals that have come before him. Is he calling Calvin a worldly Deist??
It is a good reminder that cessationists ought not to make this very same blunder—straw man arguments, sweeping history under the rug, ignoring the hard task of exegesis and the valuable work of our predecessors/ contemporaries, even if we disagree with them. I have no doubt that we have often done this.
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This “new calvinism” that’s beginning to pop up (headed my Mark Driscoll) is attacking those who hold the view of being cessionists. Driscoll just preached a sermon where he calls cessionists “worldly” and a theology that leads to deism and ultimately atheism.
Driscoll is writing a book which will literally be the training guide for this new calvinism movement. In it, he will affirm the gifts, signs and wonders while attacking and separating traditionally reformed cessionists.
It all goes back to John Piper. Piper is the cornerstone of this new charismatic calvinism movement. Driscoll is just the “hip” cool spoke mans trying to reach the Young Restless Reformed crowd with it….
Why is this happening? Because the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement is the fastest growing movement worldwide and one of the fastest in the USA. If Reformed theology accepts the “gifts of the Spirit” it will attract many of those Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians.