Tags
Adam, Calvinism, Christ, condemnation, election, esau, free will, God, hate, Jesus, Salvation, seeking
Today we have a reader who has asked some questions that have been asked many times, albeit worded a little differently. I thought it might be helpful to answer them here just in case there are others pondering similar concerns.
Hi brother,
Just stumbled across your blog. I’ve recently discovered I am not a Calvinist, and I’m not convinced Jesus was either… so I’m thinking it’s OK.
I know there are some verses that support the 5 points, but there are others that don’t.
A couple of concerns:
- Do we also say the wicked are doomed by God’s lack of grace alone, that it is all God’s doing and not their own???
- If God does everything, we don’t need to seek and pursue Him?
- Some Calvinist conclude that God hates the world, or at least that God hates sinners…
I am sure God loves Calvinists too, and I do too. I just have a few concerns with it all. I wish we could all just follow Christ.
Oh well, looking forward to your reply.
God bless!
Jon
Jon,
Good questions. Loaded questions! I appreciate you sharing your concerns with ‘Calvinism’. Before I answer them, it should be understood that the Scriptures are the final authority in all things, not John Calvin. I hope you would agree. That being said, let’s take your questions one at a time:
1) Do we also say the wicked are doomed by God’s lack of grace alone, that it is all God’s doing and not their own?
We need to say what the Scriptures declare as truth regarding man’s condemnation, and God tells us precisely why men stand condemned through the Apostle Paul in Romans 5:18,19:
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. (ESV, emphasis mine)
This passage of course deals with a comparison between the first and second Adam (second being Christ Jesus), both acting as federal representatives of men. According to the Scripture above, all mankind, without exception, who are born of man are born as sinners, under the legal position of condemnation before God’s Law already, having been born ‘in Adam’ – not because of their own personal sins at some imagined ‘age of accountability’ – but from birth, because of the first Adam’s ‘one transgression’.
Now then, man, in this fallen state, in order to be saved, must be reconciled to God, but how? he must satisfy God’s Law perfectly. That’s impossible for him to do since he is born as one having transgressed the Law already! Yet God’s Law cries out for justice. It cannot be dismissed, otherwise the character of God would come into question.
There are two ways God’s justice can be satisfied. A man can spend eternity in hell under the wrath of God, or by being given the gifts of repentance (Acts 5:31; 2 Tim. 2:25) and saving faith in Jesus Christ (Ephes. 2:8).
God did provide a way of redemption in the life of perfect obedience and sacrifice of His only Son. Christ satisfied the requirements of the Law on behalf of those whom God graciously gave to the Son as a gift and demonstration of His lovingkindness. (Ephesians 1:1-21). The demands that the Law cried out for were paid in full on the cross. The full force of the wrath of God was heaped upon the person of Jesus Christ on behalf of all those whom the Father gave to Him as His bride.
So are men condemned by a lack of God’s grace? Absolutely not. Man hates God and His grace, according to Scripture (Romans 1). In fact, it is a wondrous display of God’s grace that any are saved at all. He is the God of all grace (I Peter 5:10). Apart from Divine intervention, no one would ever be saved, and if men go to Hell, they go there freely of their own volition and they do so because they loved darkness more than the Light – according to Scripture (John 3:19; John 6:44).
2) If God does everything, we don’t need to seek and pursue Him?
If you are truly in Christ, then praise Him that He did anything to draw you to Himself through His Son! Hopefully, the references of Scripture above have revealed to you that apart from Him you can do nothing (John 15:5).
Bottom line is simply that if you have no interest in seeking Him, and a desire to persevere in Gospel obedience, it may be you do not belong to Him. He rewards those who do seek Him (Hebrews 11:6) and certainly, if you have truly been raised with Christ the admonition to “seek the things above, where Christ is” is there to be followed (Col. 3:1). See the epistles of John, where the characteristics of the life of a true believer are laid out quite plainly.
3) Some Calvinist conclude that God hates the world, or at least that God hates sinners.
God certainly does not ‘hate the world’ itself. That would be contrary to a multitude of declarations made in Scripture, not the least of which is John 3:16. As for God hating sinners, again, we answer in the affirmative and make our case based on the Word of God:
The LORD tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence. (Psa 11:5)
“For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad–in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls– she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory–even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”(Romans 9:11-26 (ESV))
I trust this has been somewhat helpful and will close with this final thought. What we are dealing with here is not merely ‘Calvinism’ Jon, these are some foundational truths of Christianity. Election is one of the most comforting doctrines in all of Scripture. It is an expression of the lovingkindness of God, His grace, and yes, a reflection of the severity of the demands of the Law of God.
- Joel
There are no scriptures that refute Calvinist doctrines unless some are taken out of context and not understood! Each of the Five Points are clearly validated by scripture and the beauty of it all is that all the glory is God’s alone! We were DEAD in sin, But God……….This verse in Ephesians 2 so beautifully declares how God alone brought sinners to Himself for salvation!
Most arminians cling to John 3:16 which is a truly great verse unless taken as a stand alone without the futher clarification noted in John 6:44 which declares that NO man CAN come to Me unless the Father draw him!!
I fear you’ve been given some either erroneous information or insufficient information to get a good grip on what scripture states! Most folks who agonize over doctrinal issues fail to spend sufficient time reading the bible itself and hearing what a holy, sovereign, majestic God has to say to us!
May He guide you into HIs whole truth, nothing more, nothing less, nothing else!!
Blessings!!
Cristiana, when you say
” There are no scriptures that refute Calvinist doctrines unless some are taken out of context and not understood! Each of the Five Points are clearly validated by scripture and the beauty of it all is that all the glory is God’s alone! We were DEAD in sin, But God……….This verse in Ephesians 2 so beautifully declares how God alone brought sinners to Himself for salvation! ”
I must give you a hearty Amen and raise you with a Halleluiah ! Brilliant!
I have heard a few people “refute Calvinism” but every time it dissolves into their saying something like ” I cannot see how God could …” which is nothing more than saying that God could not do anything that man does not understand nor approve of. Rubbish!
God is sovereign. Thanks for testifying.
“I’ve recently discovered I am not a Calvinist, and I’m not convinced Jesus was either… so I’m thinking it’s OK.”
I’m convinced that Jesus was not a Calvinist too.
About a year ago I set out to validate the claims made by a local pastor that Calvinism was heresy and false doctrine; I really had never given it a second thought before.
The more I studied the more I was convinced that the Doctrines of Grace were true beyond a shadow of doubt.
I love what Christina said, “Each of the Five Points are clearly validated by scripture and the beauty of it all is that all the glory is God’s alone!”
Amen and glory to God!
Soli Deo Gloria!
I think Calvin was a Jesusist… just sayin’
My father was an Assembly of God pastor but for many years I felt there was a piece of the puzzle missing! I had already raised my six children and was ready to retire when I read The Sovereignty of God by A.W. Pink! Eureka! That missing piece of the puzzle is that God is sovereign!!! Sounds so simple but when I considered that a holy God is the One responsible for the creation of His world, the ownership and the management of each single atom and detail I was overjoyed and overwhelmed at the same time! How humbling, how freeing to now know that none of the details of salvation were up to me; He was even now taking care of His world and all that is in it! Soli deo gloria! How I love Him and His doctrines of grace and all of the Word that He left for us!
Blessings as you continue to learn and rejoice in His whole truth of His word!!
(I became reformed baptist after learning these new to me doctrines)
Very good and NEEDED point on God hating sinners. I’m old enough to remember being told to be afraid of God if I’m in sin. A forgotten concept, indeed.
Phil Perkins.
Great truths, comforts and encouraging verses in your reply to Jon’s questions. Lord bless you brother.
Thanks for addressing some of my concerns. The first comment mentions that there is “There are no scriptures that refute Calvinist doctrines unless some are taken out of context and not understood! “. So I’d like to suggest these be added to the discussion…
…
Thanks,
God bless!
I’d be happy to Jon, just as soon as you respond to those answers already given
Hi, is there are reason you are not posting those verses that I’ve given you twice? Your readers seem to be under the impression that all of scripture supports the 5 points of Calvinism. I agree some verses do, but I think there are some verses that are often overlooked.
I understand the need for some moderation on discussions like this, but I can’t help feel like my points are being censored… which I’m fine with… but your readers are only being shown part of the discussion. If this post is to show an honest discussion on this topic, and you don’t allow me to include those verses, I don’t feel you are not being very honest to your readers.
I don’t expect this will be posted either…
Oh well… God bless!
We’ve covered this Jon. You’re points have not been censored, nor have they’ been ignored. They have, in fact, been posted and answered, and you even responded.
Ooops, one more verse.
I think God loves sinners…
“But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” (Romans 5:8 NIV)
Jesus was also called a friend of sinners.
If God hates sinners I think some may conclude that we have permission to hate sinners too. Would God expect us to love people that He doesn’t even love?
OK… I’ll respond a bit to your post as well.
I don’t think Romans 5:18,19 clearly states that God chooses some to torture in hell for eternity. But that is the conclusion that Calvinism leads to. Yes everyone is born mastered by sin and self, but is it all God’s doing that many remain mastered by sin and self?
I’m not sure if you understood my second point… sorry, I’m sometimes too brief. I think scripture is clear that we are called to seek God, follow God, obey God, etc. There is a part for us to play. I don’t know the formula. But if we say it is all up to God, then the conclusion is what we do makes no difference… and I don’t think that is fair to all of Scripture.
Anyways, thanks for your time… I’m not sure why I got into this. I’m not trying to convert you, I’m just trying to understand. The ideas of John Calvin have had a great impact on the way many view God.
God bless.
Jon,
It is, biblically speaking, incorrect to say ‘it’s all up to God’ – while denying man’s responsibility. Calvinism does not deny man’s responsibility to repent and believe. To say it does is to misrepresent the teachings of Scripture which, by default, misrepresents calvinism
Also, you said:
Romans 5:8 actually contains the answer to your ‘concern’. Paul says “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Specifically, this is addressed, as the entire letter to the Romans is, to Christians.
What you are attempting to do is take a gloriously comforting truth for believers, and apply it to unbelievers. Quite frankly, “that dog won’t hunt.”
It is a faulty hermeneutic to take what is addressed to believers and attempt to apply it to unbelieving sinners that hate God.
Joel
I appreciate Jon’s honesty and JT’s guidance for him (and us). MAny of us are taught crazy stuff by well-meaning people who simply do not understand scripture. Garsh, even many mega-church, mega-dollar preachers do not understand and/or believe scripture!
I praise God that He is sovereign and for some reason chose to save whom He saves. I know this is true even though I will never be able to explain how He does it!
Rock on, JT. You da man!
Hi all,
Although I now stand very strongly in the reformed camp concerning doctrines such that refer to the sovereignty of God, I have come from a background of being very much opposite to that for a large part of my Christian life.
A few years ago, I remember being challenged deeply concerning the state of the church, and especially the state of my own life. In reality it was extremely worldly, even though I along with others would have been considered by many to be advanced in the kingdom. It makes me cringe now, but at the time I was blissfully ignorant.
Anyway, myself and a few others decided to return to the basics of our Christian faith, only to find that although we all assumed we knew the Gospel and the fundamental doctrines well, it didn’t take long to realise we knew virtually nothing at all.
When we began to search the Scriptures, we soon found out that much of what we accepted as right and proper, was in fact contrary to Scripture. But as we peeled back the layers of garbage that we had surrounded ourselves with, we found ourselves come to conclusions without any prompting, that suddenly started earning us the label of “Calvinist”, without even knowing who John Calvin was!
What I realise now is that, as was pointed out earlier, it is not anything to do with John Calvin or anyof the reformers interpretation, but their common desire to cast all that was accepted to the ground, and then pick up only that which the Bible commanded clearly to pick up and cling to. In my honest opinion, what you see in reformed theology, is a very clear picture of the faith once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3), being applied honestly.
If there is one thing I am utterly convinced that causes hostility to the points of grace spoken of in Calivinism, has very little to do with Calvin at all. Rather it is with regard to the fact that, if these things are in fact true, then there is so much that must be laid down as dross, before we can carry on sincerely.
I know that our group virtually had to go back to the beginning to pick up the thread. However the plus side is this: When we find the humility to lay down our preconceived ideas that raise our own esteem and belittle the Sovereign power of God, we find a process of transformation that becomes extremely rapid, and shores up the weak points that plagued us in our faith for years.
God bless,
John.
John said: “When we find the humility to lay down our preconceived ideas that raise our own esteem and belittle the Sovereign power of God, we find a process of transformation that becomes extremely rapid, and shores up the weak points that plagued us in our faith for years.”
Amen and amen!
Great questions by Jon, wonderful, biblical answers by JT and whole gang. Praise the Lord!
Here is a very helpful booklet defending from Scripture the doctrines of Grace called Calvinsim: http://www.faithbibleonline.net/bibcalv.htm
Jon said, “I don’t think Romans 5:18,19 clearly states that God chooses some to torture in hell for eternity. But that is the conclusion that Calvinism leads to.”
Jon, we all deserve Hell. You do, I do; all of mankind does. God, out of His loving kindness, saved some from Hell.
God didn’t choose to send “some” to Hell, He chose to save “some” from Hell.
Praise Him for that!
Amen! ( If you had written the Westminster confessions, it would have been a thinner book, wouldn’t it?
)
lol….
I believe in simplicity.
Yes there are some verses that support these positions. But there are other verses that seem to be ignored. If God wanted us to believe this system of beliefs I think it would have been clearly laid out… however it took 1500 years before John Calvin and his followers came up with this system of beliefs.
Hebrews 11:6 (NIV) – Total Depravity? Is it possible for us to seek God?
“And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.”
2 Peter 3:9 (NIV) – Unconditional Election? Is it God’s will that some are not chosen? Or is it possible that God wants everyone to repent, but some chose not to?
” The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”
Acts 17:30 (NIV) – Unconditional Election?
“In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.”
1 John 2:2 (NIV) – Limited atonement?
“He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.”
Matthew 23:37 (NIV) – Irresistible Grace? Is it possible that some people choose not to follow God?
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.”
Matthew 6:33 (NIV) – free will? Ability to seek God? Yes!
“But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.”
Jon,
Are you interested in actually learning the Truth behind and supporting the doctrines of grace, or are you merely interested in trotting out proof texts that appear to support Arminianism?
I encourage you to read this booklet: http://www.faithbibleonline.net/bibcalv.htm for a brief and concise answer to your questions.
Thanks Manfred, actually neither (I have read my share of similar articles). I’m interested in knowing my Lord, and learning to hear and trust His voice. I’m not here to give proofs for Arminianism or any other ‘ism. I don’t think we need to have it all figured out. If the point was to have the best answers to some of these question I believe he would have given us at least one sermon that fully answered all these questions. If we have to copy and paste a bunch of verses to prove or disprove either side, I think we are getting side-tracked from the message and hope he came to share. Christ’s body has too frequently divided over similar disputes. Unity of Christ’s body is an essential characteristic of any member of Christ’s body. Seeking knowledge and dialoging on issues is OK, but never as essential as unity.
Thanks all for your time on this… I’m really not sure why I jumped into this debate… I should know better.
If you are satisfied that Calvinism best explains the mysteries of our faith… carry on… keep seeking our Lord.
Please don’t judge those of us that don’t. History has had many Christ followers who have not understood the gospel through the lens of Calvin.
God bless!
For the record, I did not use ‘the lens of Calvin. There was no need. Sola Scriptura!
JT
Did you find the words “Sola Scriptura!” in Scripture….? Does Scripture teach Scripture alone? What is the role of the Holy Spirit…. sorry that’s another topic.
I used the Scripture alone- that is, apart from Calvin
Jon, cutting and pasting Scripture is part of the problem. You must study Scripture in context, you must look at who the letters are addressed to, as well.
The Heb.11:6 passage you mentioned, well, the faith that causes them to come is a gift from God, and without it it is impossible to please God. But since none come of their own volition, which the Scripture says, then the only way they come is because God gives them the gift of faith. So if God is the one in control, then He is obviously choosing who will come, since no one would unless He did.
In the 2Peter passage, go back and see who the letter was written to. The usward is all the believers, not unbelievers.
In the Acts passage, yes, God does call all to repent but do they? No, because they can’t. The Holy Spirit causes repentance, and we know not everyone has the Holy Spirit. God allowed ignorance for a time but that time is coming to an end and those who have not repented will be judged. It is like with Pharoah in the Old Test.. God knew beforehand how all the events would play out. Pharoah did what came naturally and God used him and then judged him. Was God unfair? No, because Pharoah, as a natural man, is in rebellion to God as all natural men are. Only Spirit regenerated man responds to God. And they only have the Spirit because God chose to have mercy on them. Read Romans 9.
1John passage was written to Jewish believers who thought that they, not Gentiles were the only ones chosen of God. So the world there, means those that are not Jewish. They were very territorial with their God. Read the Old Test. Even Jesus said , I am come only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He said He was not praying for the world but only for His.
I hope you are getting the point here. You must know or have someone show you the Greek or Hebrew translations in some of these passages to get the true understanding.
Free will is not in the Bible. No one was seeking God. Even back to Abraham. He was a pagan. He was not searching for God and God chose Him. Paul was killing Christians when the Lord knocked him to the ground. God does the choosing and those He chooses will follow Him because He is God. Those who aren’t chosen get what they deserve(what we all deserve without His mercy) judgment. It is amazing that God chooses anyone. Do a study on Romans.
I am sure you have moved on from this conversation but I hope that you haven’t.
May God bless you.
We, unfortunately, describe our beliefs as ‘Calvinism’ but only because he so succinctly homogonized all of scriptures declarations which declare the sovereignty of God in creation and salvation! We believe this doctrines, not because of Calvin but because they so clearly show God’s truths to us. We dont worship Calvin but when calling ourselves Calvinists we are stating clearly, as Calvin had done, that we embrace all of scriptures truths as he did.
Why did Christ speak in parables? So that His chosen ones would understand the points He made but others would not understand and believe. He gave to His own His truths in all of scripture but we must study and seek them out as a treasure hidden in a field and then be willing to give up everything in order to posess Him and His truths! He had good reasons for not just laying out His plan, decree, and the gospel in a 1,2,3 order but He used beautiful object lessons through all of scripture to show us so clearly His presence in all of scripture! Once our heart has been regenerated we then must ‘work out our own salvation with fear and trembling’ as it is our lifeswork from then on to study His Word and come to know how He thinks, what He thinks and what He expects from His own that love Him! We know we are not to be conformed to this world but must be transformed by the renewing of our mind that we may prove we are created in Christ Jesus! All the arguments in the world over doctrine are so pointless unless we spend time searching out His word and have His love in our heart! If we do have His love in our heart and yearn desperately to know Him then He will be showing Himself to us in His word!
Christiana said:
“All the arguments in the world over doctrine are so pointless unless we spend time searching out His word and have His love in our heart! If we do have His love in our heart and yearn desperately to know Him then He will be showing Himself to us in His word!”
… and listening to His Word that lives in us… the Holy Spirit.
Amen! May it be so.